When you were taking the intro programming courses (CSC131 and CSC132) at (S)MSU had they switched them to Java yet? They had started that process as I was leaving, but I got to take them in C/C++. I didn't get to learn Scheme though because the semester I took languages Wang taught it and I learned nothing useful... it was a complete waste of my time... of the 3 or 4 Wang courses I had, only 1 was truly even remotely useful... she was a disappointment to me. Anyway, did you get stuck with the Java courses, or did you get to do the C and Scheme stuff?
I graduated from (S)MSU with a CIS degree. And I can name names of your "JavaSchools". I might argue that one could come out of most ANY department the same way these people came out of the CIS department. They might be in any field and if they work on computers they might develop in any language.
For the most part - they belonged to Frats and what not and were getting the computer field degree for the money ONLY. I worked with them at other major companies. For the most part they slide by there the same way they slid by at school. They don't go to training or conferences, they don't make any attempt to self teach. They don't make any attempt to be GOOD at their job. Managers aren't dumb, even if at times they appear to be. When the best project rolls around they don't get them... When layoff time rolled around they were at the top of the list... Its likely in 5 to 10 years they will be in some other job function or career and no longer bothering you with their CRAPPY code. Although the local college will be spouting its latest batch of crappy coders to work for you.
I almost take offense that MY paradigm of choice has taken the name. I worked hard... I got a full ride I kept up my grades and kept my full ride while taking the hardest teachers on the roster when I could. I feel that it has made me GOOD at my job. And I don't have as many of the ANTI-SOCIAL tendencys that the majority of the CS majors tend to have. Making it more likely I would be YOUR BOSS someday.
revvapor - (S)MSU is now a JavaSchool, for the most part. The basic programming courses for freshmen are Java I (CSC 131) and Java 2 (CSC 235?). I've never have had Wang for class, nor will I ever have to. Somehow I fell through the cracks and avoided her completely. From what I hear, she is the typical computer science teacher who's been in academia all of her life. She's the type who teaches all theory and no practical application. There are huge differences between her and teachers who've worked in the field for a while. Students actually learn more from the experience of their teachers.
nunya - I totally agree with your observation that any department can produce under qualified graduates, but I think you've missed the point of the article. "JavaSchools" is the phenomenon where the schools are dumbing down the computer science curriculum to up enrollment. The computer science department usually has a low enrollment simply because the classes are so hard. Who knows, perhaps in the near future, any <strike>CIS Major</strike> dumbass will be able to ace computer science classes with ease!
The computer science majors I know are not anti-social. As a matter of fact, most other people I know who are not even in a computer science field are often times more anti-social. I have always found that stereo-type to be inaccurate.
One of my roommates in college was a CIS major. He was intelligent, no doubt about it. However, I do not know if he could have handled the CSC program at the time. He was not good at math, and I never saw any indication that he had the critical thinking skills necessary to make it through the program. He wasn't stupid, but he wasn't cut out for CSC either. I saw alot of people leave the CSC dept. at SMSU to go to the CIS dept. because they couldn't hack it. I don't say that because it makes me feel good... I say it because they said it.
I have always found the "I'm a CIS major, we manage CSC majors" thing hilarious. I've never been managed by a CIS major. I've been managed by a few CSC majors, a guy with a Masters in Physics, an Engineer, and my current manager taught himself how to code and never went to college.
The CIS majors I've worked with that could pull their weight in the field have been few and far between, but they were really smart. Most of the CIS majors I have come across did it for the money like you said.
I chose CSC because it was a challenge, and because I wanted to learn the field the right way. I believed that CIS was a shortcut to a degree that was lacking in important ways. With he way things are changing now, I don't know how much of a difference there is anymore. If they keep lowering the requirements it won't make a difference which one you choose.
That is just my experience, and I am a CSC major, so my opinion is biased. Take it for what it's worth.
I think the lowering of requirements is also happening across the board in this country. They start doing it in elementary school so kids can actually complete grades and move along to be another teachers problem. Is slowly moving up the ladder because you basically need a college degree to get a decent paying job these days. If you don't have a college degree you have to have some real technical training under your belt. Everyone it too busy worrying about that new car, big screen, home equity loan, whatever... to worry about what their kids or govt is doing behind their backs - a greater social problem.
Soon enough a college degree will be the same toilet paper a highschool degree is and we will all have to go back for our masters.
Back when I was deciding I talked to people who switched from CSC to CIS and it was more of an "I don't belong" over there than I couldn't hack it. I'm sure the atmosphere is different there now, and 3 or 4 years ago, than when I graduated or before the departments split.
I will admit that I chose CIS over CSC because I knew it would be an easier trip through college. Why bust my ass learning about pointers and physics when I don't user them? I also considered the usefulness of the base requirements... At the time I switched from another college with plans on an engineering degree to MSU - my high school principal flat out told me I was "ruining my life" and I would "surely regret it later".
With my degree I learned about finance, hr, legal - stuff like that - and I have actually HAD applications for that in my life. I saved at least $1000 writing my own legal docs and representiny my self in court on some personal legal matters that I would have paid through the nose to hire a lawyer. The finance and accounting classes help me understand whats going on with my 401k and my companies well being - this has benefited me with a nice cushion for retirement at a younger age than most. I dream of having my own business someday which will hopefully find uses for the HR, management, accounting, etc classes that I was required to take, if not I will continue to move up the ladder with my current employer and make use of them. As a coworker with a CSC degree told me yesterday - he doesn't anticipate having to calculate the amount of water flowing through a pipe any time soon. And there was plenty of challege to be found in CIS (or any other department) if you chose the right professors. I took one HARD ASS of a history professor just because. Obviously this would only be for personal interest as I rarely need to know the date that we entered WWII in my daily life.
In summary - a few lazies sliding by is no reason to trash talk other departments or have an elitist attitude.
Sorry to offend you, it wasn't MY intent. The CSC vs. CIS thing always turns into an interesting discussion. But, I think we agree that it really just comes down to which one allowed you to get what you wanted out of your education, and really that is all that matters.
I chose CSC because I like physics, math, electronics, and all that. I don't like finance, hr, and all that, and I know it may put me at a diisadvantage in some situations. But, I really like knowing how to tell how much water is flowing through that pipe!
I didn't want to come off as elitist, but I can see how I may have. Sorry about that. I was just sharing the POV my experience has given me.
Comments
Duane Keys
I know what you mean... of course that is a generalization, and I do know some exceptions to the CIS rule.
revvapor
When you were taking the intro programming courses (CSC131 and CSC132) at (S)MSU had they switched them to Java yet? They had started that process as I was leaving, but I got to take them in C/C++. I didn't get to learn Scheme though because the semester I took languages Wang taught it and I learned nothing useful... it was a complete waste of my time... of the 3 or 4 Wang courses I had, only 1 was truly even remotely useful... she was a disappointment to me. Anyway, did you get stuck with the Java courses, or did you get to do the C and Scheme stuff?
nunya
I graduated from (S)MSU with a CIS degree. And I can name names of your "JavaSchools". I might argue that one could come out of most ANY department the same way these people came out of the CIS department. They might be in any field and if they work on computers they might develop in any language.
For the most part - they belonged to Frats and what not and were getting the computer field degree for the money ONLY. I worked with them at other major companies. For the most part they slide by there the same way they slid by at school. They don't go to training or conferences, they don't make any attempt to self teach. They don't make any attempt to be GOOD at their job. Managers aren't dumb, even if at times they appear to be. When the best project rolls around they don't get them... When layoff time rolled around they were at the top of the list... Its likely in 5 to 10 years they will be in some other job function or career and no longer bothering you with their CRAPPY code. Although the local college will be spouting its latest batch of crappy coders to work for you.
I almost take offense that MY paradigm of choice has taken the name. I worked hard... I got a full ride I kept up my grades and kept my full ride while taking the hardest teachers on the roster when I could. I feel that it has made me GOOD at my job. And I don't have as many of the ANTI-SOCIAL tendencys that the majority of the CS majors tend to have. Making it more likely I would be YOUR BOSS someday.
J.P. Cummins
revvapor - (S)MSU is now a JavaSchool, for the most part. The basic programming courses for freshmen are Java I (CSC 131) and Java 2 (CSC 235?).
I've never have had Wang for class, nor will I ever have to. Somehow I fell through the cracks and avoided her completely. From what I hear, she is the typical computer science teacher who's been in academia all of her life. She's the type who teaches all theory and no practical application. There are huge differences between her and teachers who've worked in the field for a while. Students actually learn more from the experience of their teachers.
nunya - I totally agree with your observation that any department can produce under qualified graduates, but I think you've missed the point of the article. "JavaSchools" is the phenomenon where the schools are dumbing down the computer science curriculum to up enrollment. The computer science department usually has a low enrollment simply because the classes are so hard. Who knows, perhaps in the near future, any <strike>CIS Major</strike> dumbass will be able to ace computer science classes with ease!
revvapor
The computer science majors I know are not anti-social. As a matter of fact, most other people I know who are not even in a computer science field are often times more anti-social. I have always found that stereo-type to be inaccurate.
One of my roommates in college was a CIS major. He was intelligent, no doubt about it. However, I do not know if he could have handled the CSC program at the time. He was not good at math, and I never saw any indication that he had the critical thinking skills necessary to make it through the program. He wasn't stupid, but he wasn't cut out for CSC either. I saw alot of people leave the CSC dept. at SMSU to go to the CIS dept. because they couldn't hack it. I don't say that because it makes me feel good... I say it because they said it.
I have always found the "I'm a CIS major, we manage CSC majors" thing hilarious. I've never been managed by a CIS major. I've been managed by a few CSC majors, a guy with a Masters in Physics, an Engineer, and my current manager taught himself how to code and never went to college.
The CIS majors I've worked with that could pull their weight in the field have been few and far between, but they were really smart. Most of the CIS majors I have come across did it for the money like you said.
I chose CSC because it was a challenge, and because I wanted to learn the field the right way. I believed that CIS was a shortcut to a degree that was lacking in important ways. With he way things are changing now, I don't know how much of a difference there is anymore. If they keep lowering the requirements it won't make a difference which one you choose.
That is just my experience, and I am a CSC major, so my opinion is biased. Take it for what it's worth.
nunya
I think the lowering of requirements is also happening across the board in this country. They start doing it in elementary school so kids can actually complete grades and move along to be another teachers problem. Is slowly moving up the ladder because you basically need a college degree to get a decent paying job these days. If you don't have a college degree you have to have some real technical training under your belt. Everyone it too busy worrying about that new car, big screen, home equity loan, whatever... to worry about what their kids or govt is doing behind their backs - a greater social problem.
Soon enough a college degree will be the same toilet paper a highschool degree is and we will all have to go back for our masters.
Back when I was deciding I talked to people who switched from CSC to CIS and it was more of an "I don't belong" over there than I couldn't hack it. I'm sure the atmosphere is different there now, and 3 or 4 years ago, than when I graduated or before the departments split.
I will admit that I chose CIS over CSC because I knew it would be an easier trip through college. Why bust my ass learning about pointers and physics when I don't user them? I also considered the usefulness of the base requirements... At the time I switched from another college with plans on an engineering degree to MSU - my high school principal flat out told me I was "ruining my life" and I would "surely regret it later".
With my degree I learned about finance, hr, legal - stuff like that - and I have actually HAD applications for that in my life. I saved at least $1000 writing my own legal docs and representiny my self in court on some personal legal matters that I would have paid through the nose to hire a lawyer. The finance and accounting classes help me understand whats going on with my 401k and my companies well being - this has benefited me with a nice cushion for retirement at a younger age than most. I dream of having my own business someday which will hopefully find uses for the HR, management, accounting, etc classes that I was required to take, if not I will continue to move up the ladder with my current employer and make use of them. As a coworker with a CSC degree told me yesterday - he doesn't anticipate having to calculate the amount of water flowing through a pipe any time soon. And there was plenty of challege to be found in CIS (or any other department) if you chose the right professors. I took one HARD ASS of a history professor just because. Obviously this would only be for personal interest as I rarely need to know the date that we entered WWII in my daily life.
In summary - a few lazies sliding by is no reason to trash talk other departments or have an elitist attitude.
revvapor
Sorry to offend you, it wasn't MY intent. The CSC vs. CIS thing always turns into an interesting discussion. But, I think we agree that it really just comes down to which one allowed you to get what you wanted out of your education, and really that is all that matters.
I chose CSC because I like physics, math, electronics, and all that. I don't like finance, hr, and all that, and I know it may put me at a diisadvantage in some situations. But, I really like knowing how to tell how much water is flowing through that pipe!
I didn't want to come off as elitist, but I can see how I may have. Sorry about that. I was just sharing the POV my experience has given me.